Greater are they that serve

Came across a, for me, scary aspect of Mormonism, that is adherents are to 'sustain the prophet.'

So you are to take whatever they say, even if it contradicts what comes before. To back this up is a unsettling quote from Brigham Young, repeated in the '14 Fundamentals' speech of Ezra Taft Benson, where he gives the setting for it, in that He (Brigham) took copies of the Bible, the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants, and after laying them down in front of him said,

'There is the written word of God to us, concerning the work of God from the beginning of the world to our day. When compared with the living oracles those books are nothing to me; those books do not convey the word of God direct to us now, as do the words of a Prophet or a man bearing the Holy Priesthood in our day and generation. I would rather have the living oracles than all the writing in the book.'

Benson goes on to relate how Joseph Smith (who's present) said,

Brother Brigham has told you the word of The Lord, and he has told you the truth.'

And so you are to bear him up rather than analyse it, for what comes before is by that statement is superseded by what comes after and so can not be used to judge it. And don't miss the fact that along with the Bible, the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants were dismissed by Brigham. Also how certain do you know what you are to believe, if it can change with every conference. Priesthood and ethnic groups changed, polygamy changed, what else could seismically change. I will look at what things once outlined were jettisoned which subsequent revelations, in future posts. 

Another thing, going to the Bible it tells me something different. 

Ephesians 4:11-12

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

One why are prophets elevated above apostles, but that's a point for another time. 

Second, and what I do want to comment on from here, they are given for the good of the church, to benefit us, to build us up, not for us to 'sustain'. They are to minister, not be ministered to. Of course, saying that, the church is to support each other, I would say most noticeably by prayer. 

If Paul for example could be examined, then surely every church leader is to have his messages held up to scriptural examination. If truth is not objective but subjective then you will inevitably be swept to and fro on wind of doctrine, which scripture warns about. 

Another list about the Book of Mormon, can you believe that?

Things you need to believe, if you are to be able to believe the Book of Mormon.

The first three are fine, I hold to and believe in.

1/ The existence of God. 

2/ The divinity of Christ. 

3/ The existence of angels. 

The others I will need help with, feel free to post comments as to why these are so by all means. 

4/ That Joseph Smith translated this by dictation, looking at a stone.

5/ That there is such a language as Reformed Egyptian. 

6/ That the Book of Isaiah was written before Lehi left Jerusalem. 

7/ That the abundance of New Testament quotes or allusions are 'decision' translations on Joseph's part. 

8/ That the animals that do not exist but mentioned here are examples of 'loan shifting.'

9/ That any connection between this and other contemporary documents is purely circumstantial, and the witnesses pointing out the similarity are 'led' in their testimony. 

10/ That Native Americans are, at least in some way, of Hebrew ancestry. 

11/ That baptism is not a ritual from christian descent, but initiated by Nephi, 500 years before John the Baptist. 

12/ That ziff is an unknown kind of metal

13/ That references to barley or wheat, are other crops. 

14/ That 'steel' is another alloy, like copper. 

Yes I started to get petty, and I could have continued on about bees, glass, swords, windows, 'things of curious workmanship', and so on, by my point is hopefully illustrated, but the list must be more than problematic as to the books veracity. 

Sorry this just seems too unlikely

The Book of Isaiah is a widely sourced book for the Book of Mormon, fairly much with word for word renderings, at times copying mistranslations of the KJV.

Which I could list if you wanted and will in future posts if requested, and yes I know that a reason of it could be the exhortation from the Book of Mormon, in Mormon 8:23

23 Search the prophecies of Isaiah. Behold, I cannot write them. Yea, behold I say unto you, that those saints who have gone before me, who have possessed this land, shall cry, yea, even from the dust will they cry unto the Lord; and as the Lord liveth he will remember the covenant which he hath made with them. (Mormon 8:23)

But even with that, looking at chapter at Isaiah 53 (which I don't mind quoting as it points to the cross,) and the corresponding texts, the New Testament writers, when recorded in the KJV, didn't follow word for word quotations. By the way it is though virtually the same way in Mosiah 14.

Isaiah 53

Chapter 53

 Who hath believed our report?

and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant,

and as a root out of a dry ground:

he hath no form nor comeliness;

and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

 He is despised and rejected of men;

a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief:

and we hid as it were our faces from him;

he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

 Surely he hath borne our griefs,

and carried our sorrows:

yet we did esteem him stricken,

smitten of God, and afflicted.

 But he was wounded for our transgressions,

he was bruised for our iniquities:

the chastisement of our peace was upon him;

and with his stripes we are healed.

 All we like sheep have gone astray;

we have turned every one to his own way;

and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,

yet he opened not his mouth:

he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter,

and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb,

so he openeth not his mouth.

 He was taken from prison and from judgment:

and who shall declare his generation?

for he was cut off out of the land of the living:

for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

 And he made his grave with the wicked,

and with the rich in his death;

because he had done no violence,

neither was any deceit in his mouth.

 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief:when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:

by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;

for he shall bear their iniquities.

 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great,

and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;

because he hath poured out his soul unto death:

and he was numbered with the transgressors;

and he bare the sin of many,

and made intercession for the transgressors.

John 12:38 quoting verse 1

That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

Romans 10:16 quoting verse 1

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Matthew 8:17 quoting verse 4

That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

1 Peter 2:24-25 quoting verses 5-6

Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness:by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Acts 8:32-33 quoting verses 7-8

The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: In his humiliation his judgment was taken away:and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

1 Peter 2:22 quoting verse 9

Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

Luke 22:37 quoting verse 12

For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors:for the things concerning me have an end.

So how did a man 'translating' from Reformed Egyptian come up with such identical like passages?

If I'm allowed to make a 'Wicked' point

Recently I, with my son (who is 9 and autistic), went to see a musical called 'Wicked'. It is based on a book by Gregory Maguire, who told the 'Wizard of Oz' tale from the witches point of view.

It doesn't describe itself as a parody but another telling of that story from another view, and to be able to assess that moniker, you need it compare it to the original, not the other way round.

So it is with The Book of Mormon, it needs to be compared to the Bible. Isn't it fair that a 'faith' that says it is from a quote found on mormon.org

Gordon B. Hinckley, prior President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (1995-2008), said:

“We are Christians in a very real sense and that is coming to be more and more widely recognized. Once upon a time people everywhere said we are not Christians. They have come to recognize that we are, and that we have a very vital and dynamic religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ. We, of course, accept Jesus Christ as our Leader, our King, our Savior...the dominant figure in the history of the world, the only perfect Man who ever walked the earth, the living Son of the living God. He is our Savior and our Redeemer through whose atoning sacrifice has come the opportunity of eternal life. Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints pray and worship in the name of Jesus Christ. He is the center of our faith and the head of our Church. The Book of Mormon is Another Testament of Jesus Christ and witnesses of His divinity, His life, and His Atonement.”

Apologies if I've violated some form of copyright, if so I'll remove this post, but if they profess this to be true, then shouldn't it conform to Scripture. If it is a true prophecy, and its leaders are true, lone seer, prophet and revelators. They would be conforming with the standards of a prophet in Deuteronomy 18, in that his prophecies must come about, and must not talk of false divinities. If I am wrong let me know in the comments, but Joseph Smith and those who followed him, failed both tests.

Can someone explain this?

Bruce McConkie wrote in Mormon Doctrine, 'Grace is granted to men proportionately as they conform to the standards of personal righteousness that are part of the gospel plan'

I guess the gospel plan he is writing about is

2Nephi 25:23

For we labor diligently to write to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. 

To me, the gospel plan is 

1 Corinthians 15:1-4

Chapter 15

The Resurrection of Christ

 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you— unless you believed in vain.

 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received:that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,

It is not done through our adherence to certain standards, that merits salvation, or is the plan of salvation. 

If grace is granted proportionately to our conformity to the 'standards of personal righteousness' then the more sinful a person is the less grace he gets, the more righteous the more grace is granted. 

Where that F.A.I.T.H.S. 

Romans 5:20

Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

This says that God grants grace because He wants to, not because of us. Grace which is undeserved cannot be merited or earned. 

Romans 5:1-2

Chapter 5

Peace with God Through Faith

 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

This says we are justified by faith through grace freely. 

Romans 3:24

and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Sorry for the sport analogy

I am British and say I'm talking about football with an American. And we are doing quite well but a few minutes in we realise that despite using similar terms, as we are both using words like goals, defence, ball, referee, we were talking about different sports. 

I'm talking about soccer not gridiron, the same confusion can happen with discussions with a LDS as we can use the same terms but mean different things and so will talk past each other. 

So we need to know what each other mean so never be afraid of the question, Can you explain what you mean by that?, or Am I understanding you right ...?

The gospel as I see it

For a person to be saved, The Bible is very clear that one must put faith in Christ for salvation. Scripture plainly states that the entire human race is under the condemnation of sin. To have eternal life (at any level of reward), one must have a personal and saving relationship with Jesus Christ. 

Where's that F.A.I.T.H.S. 

Romans 3:21-30

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness:that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay:but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Galatians 3:6 - 4:7

Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse:for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident:for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith:but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us:for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise:but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid:for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female:for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Chapter 4

 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

He who has the Son, (Jn 3:36, 1Jn 5:12) has eternal life. He who does not have the Son does not have life but the wrath of God abides on him. Belief in Christ and faith in Christ are like breathing for the believer. Without faith it is impossible to please God. (Heb 11:6)

The whole gospel or the gospel with a hole

Things not found, unless someone would like to correct me in the comment, in the Book of Mormon, which has the 'fullness of the everlasting gospel'.

Becoming gods ourselves 

A premortal existence

God being the literal Father of our spirits conceived by Him and our 'Heavenly Mother'

The Baptism for the dead

The Aaronic or Melchizedek order of The Priesthood

A mention of secret rituals as part of 'the gospel'

Exaltation or Endowment

Eternal marriage in a Mormon Temple

The Word of Wisdom

'The plain and precious parts' removed from the Bible

Paying honest tithes and offerings 

Searching out your kindred dead and perform the saving ordinances of the gospel for them. 

The Mormon Church organisation 

The plurality of gods

God (Elohim) being an exalted man

The 'three degrees of glory'

Plural marriage 

Temporary hell

A Question of Accuracy

Yes translations differ, but a good translation will go back to the most accurate manuscripts and then attempt to put the words of the Bible into an understandable language for the audience it addresses

The Book of Mormon must suffer the same problem when it translates it to Spanish or French say. You could say, more so, for it would be a translation of a 'translation', as the original text (unlike that of the Bible, for which many copies exist) no longer is presently available on earth, as it was 'taken' to heaven. 

If the Bible is considered inaccurate. 

1/ How do we know that say, James 1.5 is indeed correct. If that text is true, mustn't the rest be equally true also. 

2/ If the LDS has a prophet in direct communication with God, then in line with D&C 107:92, could he not fix the alleged errors. 

3/ If faulty transmission is the failing, due to the abundant changes in the Book of Mormon, make that 'correct as it is correctly translated' too. 

Greetings

A quick first post to let you know what I intend to do here. 

I'm currently examining the Mormon faith and will write here what I discover and how it relates to the scriptures. 

Feel free to suggest topics for me to examines or passages to look into. 

All I promise to do is strive to follow the Berean example laid out in Acts 17:11

Acts 17:10-11

And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea:who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

The criteria for truth as the title of the suggests will be where's it Found At In The Holy Scriptures(referred to in future as F.A.I.T.H.S.